NPCs Lie, Rekindling the Spark, and You're Not Eddie Brock [DMAcademy Advice]

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:06.400
Sometimes talking with friends feels like role
playing. Sometimes it feels like combat.

2
00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:12.400
Join us at the round table and
roll an isha too. This is Curmudgeons

3
00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:26.519
and Dragons. Hello adventurers, Welcome
back to another Communitions and Dragons. My

4
00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:30.960
name is Jason Portiso. Once again, I am joined by mister Jim Crocker.

5
00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.159
Hey, yeaw are we doing?
And that's it today? Me and

6
00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:39.679
Jim today, which and that's how
you know. Today we're doing dm Academy.

7
00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.159
If this is your first gam academy, Hello, But what we're gonna

8
00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:50.119
do. We're gonna go through Reddit's
our slash dm academy and look for posts

9
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.240
that are at they're asking you for
advice. Every now and again we'll find

10
00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.960
something that's offering advice, but posts
that are asking for advice, and we'll

11
00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.399
see if we can help them out
a little bit. That being said,

12
00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.039
I'm ready to jump in, Jim, We're ready to jump in. Yeah,

13
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:07.959
let's do it. Let's jump in, all right. Our first story

14
00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:14.359
is posted by user a nag ay
naeg no am pronouncing that one right.

15
00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:18.560
The title is my players believe everything
my MPCs say, what do I do?

16
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:23.840
My players never question what my NPCs
are saying they've gotten themselves into difficult

17
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:26.200
situations because of that. One of
the PCs almost died because of that.

18
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.920
One time, even an undead person
who they knew it doesn't care for PCs,

19
00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:34.560
gave them wrong information which got them
called by an opposing faction, and

20
00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:40.280
the players immediately assumed that the undead
person was badly informed and he wasn't in

21
00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:44.120
the wrong, because how should he
have known. I told my players time

22
00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:48.920
and time again that sometimes the NPCs
are lying or hide information. It frustrates

23
00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.359
me that they never question any NPC. Maybe comes down to me being a

24
00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:55.959
very good liar, but it baffles
me that my players never question anything that

25
00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.000
my MPCs say. Is there a
way to make my players start questioning my

26
00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:01.640
MPCs every now and then? Or
should I let them continuously round the problems

27
00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:06.480
when they don't question even the shadiest
NPCs that they encounter, Maybe they're not

28
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.879
shady enough. I don't know.
I'm really curious how old these players are,

29
00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:17.039
because what this sounds to me is
like they're taking a video game NPC

30
00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:23.360
approach to this, like the NPCs
that they're running into are basically just there

31
00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:25.520
to like go through a dialogue tree
and like give them a quest and they

32
00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:31.639
go and do their thing. I
will say this that actually, this is

33
00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:42.319
fine. This doesn't this isn't a
problem because it seems like they have incorporated

34
00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:46.240
as players into their play style and
into their approach to the game, the

35
00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:51.960
fact that, yeah, okay,
cool, some of these characters, these

36
00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:55.039
NPCs may be lying to us,
but the DM has done a really good

37
00:02:55.159 --> 00:03:01.800
job of making that interesting as posed
to annoying. Right, you know,

38
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:06.400
like like they get in trouble or
whatever. This guy lies, And I

39
00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:10.759
mean, I think if if you
have an NPC lie to the players whatever,

40
00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:15.520
I'm sorry, the NPC is lying
to the player characters, and the

41
00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:19.080
players go, you know what,
we're going to decide not that he's a

42
00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:23.639
dick, but that he's still our
friend and he just didn't know better or

43
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:28.599
somebody lied to him. Then,
you know, as the DM, and

44
00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:30.400
you've got a couple of options.
One, you can say, you know

45
00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:35.759
what, you're right, he is
your buddy, and he's just a you

46
00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.639
know, he's the terrible judge of
character, you're undead friend, sure,

47
00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:44.199
you know, getting his information from
shady sources and stuff like that. You

48
00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:50.159
know, and because all of us
have friends who are reliable, you know,

49
00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:53.800
like one out of three times or
something like that. But but because

50
00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:59.319
we're friends with them, and you
know whatever, it's that one out of

51
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:01.479
three makes it worth it for the
other two times when maybe they're giving us

52
00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:05.719
bad advice or they don't know what
they're talking about or something. Sure Like,

53
00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:11.360
I kind of like that that they're
not so binary about it. Like

54
00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.639
the second somebody gives them bad information, they're like, you're dead to me,

55
00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:20.199
Like, because like that's people don't
really do that in real life necessarily.

56
00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:25.439
Like, I think this is a
gift, and what you should continue

57
00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:29.959
to do is, you know,
every now and then, have those NPCs

58
00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:34.120
be wrong or be lying or whatever, but always make the result of that,

59
00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:41.000
you know, interesting and compelling,
as opposed to just completely hosing them

60
00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:45.319
because they didn't do an insight check
on somebody. Sure Like, I think

61
00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.480
this sounds great to me. This
sounds like like he's you know, he's

62
00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:53.680
got a great situation. Though.
Yeah, my first take on this was

63
00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:56.759
that, I don't know, he
says a good liar. If you're such

64
00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:59.360
a good actor that it seems like
you're not lying, you should also be

65
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:01.040
a good enough at going to make
it seem like you are lying. Uh.

66
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.360
So if you if you really want
to just like just just to hold

67
00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:09.240
their hand a little bit and get
them used to mistrusting in PCs. Get

68
00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:13.560
a couple of them that are just
like super obviously lying. Um, if

69
00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.360
you have to give them the shifty
eyes while you give them the speech,

70
00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.879
give them the shifty eyes while you
give them the speech. Um, make

71
00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:21.639
it two, make it two treasure
chests. What is a trap? What

72
00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:26.399
is treasure? And have them just
like to have the fifty fifty lie it's

73
00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:28.560
like, oh yeah, it's in
the left one. You can trust me.

74
00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.439
It's okay, big thumbs up.
And then uh and then you know,

75
00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:35.600
mimic and then after the fight maybe
a little or something. Um.

76
00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.240
And again, I don't know how
all these players are, how experienced they

77
00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.639
are. Um, Like you said
with with the dialogue tree, this this

78
00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:46.000
does sound a little bit like a
sky Rim player, uh taking their first

79
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.879
four way into D and D in
which case punished, punish them harder.

80
00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:54.079
Um. Yeah, like but so
so so I'm gonna push back on that

81
00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.560
a little bit because I think like
there's a balance that you want to walk

82
00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.680
there. Um, it's cool if
you want to have the players push back

83
00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:05.680
against um. You want to have
the players like occasionally not trusting somebody or

84
00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:11.639
have a reason to be dubious about
information they get. But like there's a

85
00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:15.279
line there, of course, so
you don't you don't want to cross it

86
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.920
into they don't ever trust anyone you
get in front of them. And that's

87
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:21.519
that can actually be a little bit
of a tightrope that you got to walk

88
00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.839
there. I mean, of course, that can be a delicate balance.

89
00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:30.079
Yeah, you want to you want
to introduce the notion of mistrust um and

90
00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:32.959
not the default. You also want
to make sure that if they don't figure

91
00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:36.720
out that that person is lying that, like I said before, it's going

92
00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:41.399
to result in something interesting, maybe
something dangerous. You know, they can

93
00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:46.160
get in trouble, but it won't
like totally hose them in a way that

94
00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.160
you know makes them gunshy of trusting
anybody. You want it. You want

95
00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:51.920
to have that be like an oh
my god, I can't believe you fell

96
00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:56.759
for that kind of a situation that
they can, you know, afterwards,

97
00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:00.759
not necessarily laugh about, but they'll
they'll get out of it in a way

98
00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:04.480
that doesn't make them feel like,
oh my god, now we can't trust

99
00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:11.360
anyone. I'm looking through the comments
here and I found a comment here by

100
00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.879
user dumb dumb d m which may
or not be a reference to the dumb

101
00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:23.639
dumb mister story that we told them
our first wholesome stories. But they the

102
00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:29.480
TLDR here is that they bring up
one of the most underutilized and often forgotten

103
00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:32.839
stats on the player's sheet. And
do you have any clue what I might

104
00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:38.079
be talking about? Passive insight,
passive insight, passive wisdom. Yeah,

105
00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:43.800
passive insight, aassive perception is something
He's always asking questions about. Passive perception.

106
00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:46.519
Yeah, but passive insight is sitting
right there for when people are trying

107
00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:49.319
to put one over on you.
Yeah. Yeah, So what I do,

108
00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:54.000
especially because I'm all doing right now
as one shots. But you know,

109
00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:58.040
the first thing I do after the
characters introduced themselves in character, of

110
00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:00.480
course, I get their max HP, I get their seeing, I gets

111
00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.439
their passive, their passive perception.
UM for new players, all explain to

112
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.240
them. It's like, listen,
if I if I need to uh sneak

113
00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:09.600
up on you, I don't need
you to know that I'm trying to sneak

114
00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:11.000
up on you. That defeats the
purpose of me sneaking up on you.

115
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:18.199
But a passive insight is like socially
sneaking up on somebody. So um,

116
00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.160
this is it's a stat that like
never gets used. In fact, I

117
00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:24.759
forget how to calculate it. Uh
So, so they suggested that using passive

118
00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.199
insight just to give them a hints
and tell them that their character thinks that

119
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:33.440
the NPC is not telling them something
or maybe or maybe deliberately lying or holding

120
00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:35.720
something back, depending on how far
off they are, And you can even

121
00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:41.519
like you know, you can quietly
roll a deception check versus their passive insight

122
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:45.840
unless they want to do an active
insight check. Um. So that that

123
00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:48.720
might be a solution too, if
if they don't start picking up on hints.

124
00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.039
But um, I don't. I
don't think the solution is have have

125
00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.360
the NPC stopped lying, because then
that's just that's just a boring game.

126
00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.200
Um. But like I'm all four
continuing to let to let them walk into

127
00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:05.039
traps until they start to learn how
many times, how many times we have

128
00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:09.080
to teach you this lesson, old
man. That may also be a thing

129
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.840
where it's not that you're such a
fantastic actor. It's that like, if

130
00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.759
you're friends with these people and you
are, like I r L an incredibly

131
00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:24.559
open, transparent and trustworthy person,
and then you sit down to be the

132
00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.720
DM and your friends who like are
just in the default habit of trusting you

133
00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:31.759
all the time and assuming you're not
lying to them. Ever, I don't

134
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:37.000
have that problem, you know,
well no, but but you know there

135
00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.480
are people that that like like if
um, you know, there's a couple

136
00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.320
of people I know, if they
were to run a game and they were

137
00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.399
to just like look me in the
eye and say, you know, and

138
00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:48.200
he tells you that this treasure map
is totally legit, I go, well,

139
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.519
yeah, of course it is all
right, because you're telling me that

140
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:58.039
I wouldn't it be, you know, because that exactly because Joe is telling

141
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:01.679
me that though Joe is you know, um embodying you know whatever, shady

142
00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:07.200
Traderson. So yeah, So,
like I said, our campaign, we

143
00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:09.799
recently moved it to in person instead
of online, and now we have a

144
00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:13.360
little we have more FaceTime. Um. Actually, this is only the second

145
00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:16.679
time ever that the four of us
were in the same room, and the

146
00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:18.480
last time was for a DM's bachelor
party, not even for D and D.

147
00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.639
So, um, that's a little
side note. Um, Our DM

148
00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:26.320
is, uh, he's getting pretty
good of voices and stuff. He's like,

149
00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:31.320
he's actually like he's he's really getting
into that kind of that style of

150
00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:37.600
DMA and is and is absolutely improving. Um. Not that he didn't start

151
00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:41.000
bad. He just had two accents
that he was good at and stuck with

152
00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.240
those. Now he's now he's branching
out of it. Oh yeah, everybody

153
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.320
was Scottish, got your Cockney,
you got your Boston. Yeah, everybody

154
00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.799
everybody was Scottish exactly. Yeah you
got you go two kingdoms over, still

155
00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:56.480
Scottish, but good Scottish. I
can't do a good Scotish anyway. So

156
00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.440
we, uh, we find this
guy who's the the like interim mayor of

157
00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:09.679
this like swampdown, and we got
shady vibes from him immediately, mostly because

158
00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.120
of the way Joe is acting.
Um, and I think I still we

159
00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:18.080
haven't resolved this part yet. I
still think we're right, um, but

160
00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.120
I think it's for the wrong reasons. He hasn't really given us much reason

161
00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:28.080
to distrust him, other than when
we were speaking with him. The DM

162
00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:31.519
was a little shady eyed and that, and we are harping on this thing.

163
00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:37.399
I still think he's bad. That's
totally fine, and tool in your

164
00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.919
toolbox to lay that ground work down
for that. Yeah, it's like,

165
00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:43.679
instead instead of turning left, we
just made three rights and just and we

166
00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:48.559
still got to the same spot,
just by the stupid way, which for

167
00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:52.039
those of you listening outside of New
Jersey, that doesn't make any sense to

168
00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:54.240
you. But that's just something we
do here in New Jersey. We go

169
00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.519
three rights to make a left.
Um, look up Joe Candle. It's

170
00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.360
weird anyway, but yeah, I
think it's gonna be a lot of fun.

171
00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:11.399
This one is posted by user nerd
Big Energy and Yes, and they

172
00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:15.519
are looking for advice. It says
what does a DM have to do for

173
00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:20.080
a bit of character development? And
what they say is I recently had an

174
00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:26.399
epiphany. I'm bored with my multi
year campaign because my PCs are exactly the

175
00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.639
same people they were when we started. Their circumstances have changed significantly, but

176
00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:37.759
their reactions haven't. My players consider
themselves role players first and foremost, but

177
00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:41.480
they've stopped engaging with each other's characters
and are tunnel visioning on the plot in

178
00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:46.279
front of them, which both makes
me feel like a trained monkey trying to

179
00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:50.200
keep them entertained and makes me think
they're bored of each other's characters too.

180
00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:56.080
So here's my question. Have your
PCs shown character development in your long campaigns?

181
00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:01.679
So how did you make it happen? And this was a particular interest

182
00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.960
to me because a lot of stuff
we get is new dms or you know,

183
00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:09.320
like like I'm starting a campaign,
what do I do? But this

184
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:13.480
is like, you know, I'm
several years in and suddenly I'm realizing this

185
00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.360
is a thing. I was really
hoping looking forward to talking about this.

186
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:18.720
Yet, Yeah, we don't get
that. We don't get a lot of

187
00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.799
late stage problems. Yeah, what's
your take on that? My immediate thought

188
00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.200
here, this is my first time
hearing this story, so this is just

189
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:31.279
like gut reaction stuff. So my
immediate reaction would be that if the plot

190
00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:37.440
is moving, if the plot is
taking over all their role playing. Um,

191
00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:41.399
in a campaign that's this long,
you should have some space to breathe

192
00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:48.240
and have it be less on plot
in story and more on character story.

193
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.559
UM. So maybe taking a few
sessions or even a few months worth of

194
00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:58.960
sessions and having less to do with
a big bad and more with developing characters.

195
00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:03.039
Um. We've talked about having like
like a home base. Um.

196
00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.200
Uh, that could that could be
one way of doing it. Um.

197
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.519
Maybe they's one of the Yeah,
absolutely that I was gonna I was gonna

198
00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:13.279
go back to that conversation. We've
had a couple of times about about how

199
00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:16.679
useful that can be. Yeah,
maybe if they finish an arc. Maybe

200
00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:20.080
if they finish a one bait bad
or one small bad, um, and

201
00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:26.720
they're in between major arcs, there
could be some downtime role playing um where

202
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.000
whether it's their their home base or
like, if they go back to their

203
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:35.440
respective hometowns for a while and uh
and do things with the riches that they've

204
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:39.480
gotten from their adventures. Um.
I've heard of PCs that like they finished,

205
00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:45.320
they finished the campaign and still keep
meeting every week because they want to

206
00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:48.919
role play their characters starting a farm. That's a little that's a little too.

207
00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.279
I would never do that, but
um, but that's not the kind

208
00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.000
of roleplayer I am. Um,
all the top of my head, that's

209
00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:58.039
that's where I would do. Where
you're like you uh, you know,

210
00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.679
finish a part of the story you're
on get an in between arc and had

211
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.919
that focus on the players a bit, like incorporate parts of the backstory,

212
00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:11.679
incorporate stuff that they've learned since the
start of the campaign, and kind of

213
00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:15.440
see where see where that goes.
I think it's a good place to start.

214
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:18.720
Yeah, and so like I see
this, and there are two immediate

215
00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.159
thoughts that I have, And one
is that I'm going to go back to

216
00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.480
a thing that I always say when
we have these conversations, which is I'm

217
00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:33.480
going to talk about emergent backstory,
which is this idea that you don't need

218
00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.759
a ton of backstory when the game
starts. You just have to say,

219
00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.799
why am I an adventurer? Why
are we together on this adventure? Maybe

220
00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.559
one or two questions about like what's
going on locally, But that's all you

221
00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:52.000
need. And in fact, the
less the PCs give you, the better,

222
00:15:52.679 --> 00:16:00.559
because then what you can do is
create backstory as you play forward like

223
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.960
this. You know, when you
hit a lull like this and you realize

224
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:11.919
that the PCs aren't talking to each
other, just ask somebody, you know,

225
00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.480
ask the fighter who taught you how
to fight, who was the first

226
00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:19.759
person to put a sword in your
hand? And then they'll you know,

227
00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:22.679
give them a week to come up
with an answer, and when they come

228
00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:26.159
to you, you turn to the
bard and you say, okay, how

229
00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:33.600
do you know this famous sword fighting
instructor? And then you drop that character

230
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.679
in and you've got a ready made
triangle there that gets them talking to each

231
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:41.159
other. You know, by involving
that character. Backstory doesn't have to stop

232
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:47.679
when you start playing the characters.
You can asking questions, incorporating it,

233
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:52.000
reincorporating it, and you know,
and certainly backstory that you created for that

234
00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:56.960
you created before. Like you said, go back to town. Have somebody

235
00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.600
from the town show up and say, oh my god, your deeds have

236
00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:07.359
reached us back there. We can't
believe that you made good. Just letting

237
00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.480
you know that there's a great big
hole opened that swallowed the fountain in the

238
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:15.799
center of town and we're all terrified
to go down there. Can you come

239
00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:18.440
back with your friends and go do
that for us, you know, and

240
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:23.119
then you can have you know,
the sweetheart they left behind, and you

241
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.799
know whatever, the younger, you
know, whatever, their sister who falls

242
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:30.519
in love with another PC or something
like that. All of that stuff is

243
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:36.480
all stuff you can do. But
the other thing that I think you can

244
00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:38.079
do with this, even if you
don't want to go back and create a

245
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:42.119
bunch of backstory, is when you
talk about that kind of tunnel vision on

246
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:48.160
the campaign. Usually what that means
is you have laid a plot in front

247
00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:55.119
of them that is like your plot
that to make progress, to go anywhere

248
00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:59.799
in the game, they feel like
they have to work on that plot to

249
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:04.359
get anything done, to move forward. And what I've done, and I

250
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:11.319
would argue probably the most successful campaign
I ever ran. I as much as

251
00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.759
I could, didn't come up with
pre made stuff. I tried to drive

252
00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:21.160
it based on what they were interested
in. But there was a thing where

253
00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:26.440
we would do an arc of whatever
the kind of overarching story was in our

254
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:30.480
big fantasy city. It was like
a you know, like a fantasy megalopolis

255
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.160
thing where all like the whole game
took place in the city and the area

256
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.240
underneath it and stuff like this.
But we would do like an arc of

257
00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.680
the main story, and then I
would ask each player, what's a story

258
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:45.039
you want to see, however outrageous
it is, however crazy you want to

259
00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:51.319
make it, and then I would
do that spotlight adventure. And because everybody

260
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:56.079
knew eventually they were going to get
their own spotlight. They were invested in

261
00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.160
those Spotlight adventures, and the Spotlight
Adventures sponned NPC that became people that we

262
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.440
liked and stuff like that. I
mean, and this was literally like,

263
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:06.240
you know, the Dwarf and Fighter
was like, I want to have a

264
00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:10.000
Western. I want to have a
dwarf Western where we're like driving cattle and

265
00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:15.279
stuff like this. So we had
it. We had a dire cattle stampede

266
00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.480
through the middle of town and stuff
like this where they were like like on

267
00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:23.400
the backs of the of the dire
cattle doing a fight against people that were

268
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:27.119
like shooting at them from buildings and
the stampede and everything, and so you

269
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:32.160
know. But but the point of
that was then like we met some of

270
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:37.400
that character's relatives who were dwarven cowboys, and you know, we had that

271
00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:42.319
whole area and everything, and the
other players were super invested in. Like

272
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:47.799
if I just in like if I
just introduced some dwarf and cowboys who were

273
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:49.920
just like here's some dwarf and cowboys, they would have gone Dwarven cowboys cool.

274
00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:55.440
But when you invest when you introduced
dwarven cowboys, one of whom is

275
00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.839
you know, the fighter's little brother, and the other of whom is the

276
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.720
fighter's dad who's angry at him that
he became a fighter instead of a cowboy

277
00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:11.039
like he was supposed to. Suddenly
everybody's way more invested just because they're connected

278
00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:15.119
to another player character, even if
it's not connected to them. Everything that

279
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:18.359
you mentioned and like, and again
I'm gonna brand mad Poduct, but like

280
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.039
it's just that that first first campaign
is just that good. Everything you mentioned

281
00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.880
is stuff that is stuff that they've
done. Um where like you know,

282
00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:30.720
finding the old love interest, like
listen to the frost Wan arcum, which

283
00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.279
is just some of the best storytelling
that I've heard, and like it's it's

284
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.039
not until you just like spelled it
out there for me that I even realized

285
00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:41.440
that that's what they did. And
that's where that's where a lot of the

286
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.519
character stuff, not so much the
story stuff, but the character stuff really

287
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.799
started coming forward. And by the
time Heat episode one hundred, which is

288
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.960
over two years in the making,
um, you are so so so invested

289
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.759
in these characters. Yep, I
have pulled over on the highway to sob

290
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:03.480
during like a any minute monologue.
But yeah, that that's fantastic advice.

291
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.240
Um, I can't really, I
can feels to add to that. So

292
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:11.960
do that because because I've actually run
games that have gone three and four years

293
00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:15.759
and stuff like this, uh and
and and that was what we did in

294
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.720
that long running game to engage people. Because you know, if you're like,

295
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.759
if you're going six months, then
you know a module or two will

296
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.400
carry you. But if you really
want to get into it long term and

297
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:30.880
you don't want that siloing where it's
just plot plot, plot, plot plot,

298
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:34.240
you've got to do those callbacks and
ensure and then get their personal stories

299
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:37.480
involved. Yeah. Cool, and
then and it's never too late to do

300
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:41.880
that. Like that's the other thing
that's important here, I think is is

301
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.000
this is not a thing where like
he needs to scrap that game and then

302
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.559
do another thing. You can just
say, hey, we're gonna set this,

303
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.559
we're gonna set the plot aside.
It's not going anywhere, and we're

304
00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:53.279
going to focus on this for a
little while. Yeah, and then we

305
00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:56.279
can get back to it when you
want to get back to it. Yeah.

306
00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:57.559
And that can even go on twice
that before about like having in between

307
00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:06.200
major arcs yep, yep. But
I do want a dwarf Western to see

308
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:08.880
if I we had we had like
this was fourth edition, so like we

309
00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:11.720
had tokens for the dire Cattle and
all that kind of stuff. It was

310
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:18.279
great. We had a lot of
fun line. All right, let's do

311
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.759
one more of these. I've got
one. I got one from user of

312
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:26.000
Viral Tiger oh four And he's asking
the real question here, is it bad

313
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:33.160
to kill a player character on purpose? The text here is, well,

314
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.519
let's just let's just read the story. Um yeah, context. I'm a

315
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:41.359
new DM running my first campaign.
We are three sessions and about eleven hours,

316
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.000
and one of the players has a
very interesting character. Okay, so

317
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.200
he's I don't love where this has
gone, but he wants to remain very

318
00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.519
mysterious and informed a group that he
has a beast within and we'll try to

319
00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:56.839
keep it under control. He's a
Level three transmutation wizard and really wants to

320
00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:02.440
be similar to Venom from Spider Man. His whole sort of personality is to

321
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.920
go against the grain of the group
and be mysterious. Lone Wolf heard it.

322
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:10.559
He's been asking me many times if
I came a scenario where he can

323
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:15.240
unleash the beast Aka use a ninth
level transmutation spell to turn himself into an

324
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.000
uz Gallam. I feel like this
is overpowered because he hasn't unlocked the spell

325
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:21.319
yet. Well, yeah, you're
right, yes, yeah, this is

326
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:25.680
his first character ever. I couldn't
tell I've tried to talk to him about

327
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:27.319
what I tried to talk to him
about waiting until he unlocks the spell,

328
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.440
but it really wants to use it
and say it's the whole point of his

329
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:34.000
character. Okay, I'm even gonna
finish reading this because this isn't about killing

330
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:38.039
a character. This is about vetoing
a character when that she even hits the

331
00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:44.920
table. Yes, you're a new
DM. A milestone for a new DM

332
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.319
is saying no to a player's idea
for the first time, and it feels

333
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:53.279
so good not to shoot down ideas, but to like just to like remind

334
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:57.400
them. It's like, no,
you can't just be the most powerful thing

335
00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:02.039
in the world because you said so, there's no story there. Yeah.

336
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:07.319
Um, so this this one is
this story itself aside um because that player

337
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:11.880
that that character should not have been
a thing to begin with, and that

338
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.119
should have been taken care of on
the first place. Um, you made

339
00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:17.799
your bad nag out lying it and
if you kill that character, you kill

340
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.759
that character. I really don't care. Um. But the question here was

341
00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:25.000
that is it bad to kill a
PC on purpose? So let's I'm gonna

342
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.680
kind of hijack their question and turn
it into my scenario. Um, and

343
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.920
this is going to come back to
my story one shots and I have I

344
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.079
have a few players that have been
coming to all of them so far,

345
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.079
and I'm super thankful for them.
UM asking all those guys who if you're

346
00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:41.000
listening to the show, I'll see
you next week. UM, but I

347
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:41.880
don't know if the answ your listener
and I we'll see if we'll see if

348
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:47.000
they do. UM ask you if
you are listening and you uh and you

349
00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:51.599
uh tell me that you heard this
episode and tell me tell me you heard

350
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.319
me call you out. I'll um, I'll let you. I'll let your

351
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.480
guy find something interesting. Well,
we'll give you. We'll drop an ext

352
00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:00.880
your magic guy. I'm I don't
know, well show to one shadow cares

353
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:07.359
um so um. So big thing
to keep in mind here is that these

354
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:08.720
are not long running campaigns. These
are with These are one shots at a

355
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:15.920
store level with regulars mostly it's it's
about I would say like maybe two regulars

356
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:19.839
per session and a lot of new
players. Um. So for all of

357
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:25.799
those reasons, I think it is
important for players to realize that there are

358
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:30.799
stakes to every fight, especially when
the fights ramp up to the uh you

359
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:33.880
know, when we know when we
just look at the clock and know,

360
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:36.680
like, hey, this this session
was scheduled, so at five o'clock is

361
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:41.519
four thirty, one of us might
die. So the last one, in

362
00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:48.160
particular, we were in this like
Unicorns pocket dimension and everything was like everything

363
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.440
was made of candy. All the
animals were stuffed. It was adorable,

364
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.839
and they were tracking down a poacher, and I needed them to know that

365
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.400
yes, things are cuddly in this
spot, but still dangerous, and yes

366
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.880
that waterfall is doctor Pepper, but
but you can still drown in it.

367
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.200
Yeah. Yeah, actually, uh, there was a mechanic built in that,

368
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:11.880
Like if you're putting this into a
longer campaign, there's a mechanic built

369
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.079
in that, like, um,
all this sense, all the food is

370
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:18.799
is sugary. Um. Yeah,
that they start taking, well, they

371
00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:22.359
like they get cavities, and you
can turn that into like hust you can

372
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:30.000
turn them into constitution implications dental horror. Yeah, okay, um so,

373
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:33.160
but I need the players to know
the mistakes. So the one player in

374
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.640
particular, and I recall that ash, I tried very hard to kill him.

375
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.680
I really need uh now, Grant
I didn't just I didn't have the

376
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.799
big bad target him just for the
stake of targeting him. That would be

377
00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:48.680
that woud be a d M metagaming. However, he did throw the first

378
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.559
fireball, so he had every reason
to targeting him. Sure, and I

379
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.920
really just made him no, would
use all three attacks to get him down,

380
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:03.160
hit him for death saves, and
someone kept u healing wording him and

381
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:07.400
kept bringing him back up, and
I think I think I downed to him

382
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.319
like three times before the fight was
over. And then in the second session

383
00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:12.759
we r we ran it again with
new players. I finally did kill one

384
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:17.160
and it was another one of our
regulars, and again through the first fireball

385
00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:21.279
and kind of deserved it. But
I needed the new players to know that,

386
00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:23.400
like, yeah, your character is
not safe. Your character doesn't have

387
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:27.960
plot armor m except for the Rangers
mastered iff. I gave him plot armor,

388
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:37.440
but not the Ranger of the Paladin. But yeah, it is there

389
00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:44.680
a situation Jim, where specifically going
for the kill is okay. Like,

390
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.839
I think it depends on the social
contract that you guys have established at the

391
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.880
start of the game. Okay,
Um, I run a particular kind of

392
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.160
game where I don't like to tell
players you can't play this character anymore.

393
00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:04.039
Um, And to some extent there, I mean, there is a way

394
00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:08.519
that if at the beginning of the
game, everyone agrees, okay, you

395
00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:14.640
can get taken down, but failing
you know, failing three death saves or

396
00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:18.759
getting knocked down to whatever negative hit
points or something like that doesn't mean that

397
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.440
you have to stop playing that character. There are like I will make sure

398
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.799
there are ways that you can get
raised from the dead or if TPK it's

399
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.839
not really a TPK, you all
wake up naked or something like that,

400
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:36.519
and to some extent that kind of
lets you take the kid gloves off in

401
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:41.759
a way that if perma death was
like like I think the question is um

402
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:48.960
uh, I think it is totally
okay to incapacitate characters because that's interesting and

403
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:52.920
that's part of the game. Yeah, perma death thing is, Yeah,

404
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:59.160
that's a little tougher question. So
this and we'll take my situation in particularly

405
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.799
again, this is a one show, um, and in one game we

406
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:03.720
can that's and that's a different kind
of thing. If if at the beginning

407
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.640
of the game, everybody knows,
and especially if there's ten or fifteen minutes

408
00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:10.200
left in the game. Yeah,
um, you don't want to kill a

409
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:14.759
PC an hour into a four hour
demo, right, that's just not you

410
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:17.359
know, you should know better to
do that on purpose. But like I've

411
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:19.559
had I've had them, I've had
them try to die but they didn't know

412
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:26.119
they were trying to diet. But
they weren't trying to die. But like

413
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:27.519
you would think that with the way
they were acting, they might have been

414
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:33.119
trying to die. But uh,
but I agree with uh, with you

415
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:37.799
giving them the ways to get out
of what would normally be a permanent death.

416
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:41.440
And that's um yeah, uh,
and I agree with that kind of

417
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:45.559
game, especially if you're you've been
playing for a while and you're getting attached

418
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:48.960
to these characters, um to where
I like, yeah, you go,

419
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:52.920
you go find a high level cleric
in the next town over or or something

420
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.920
along those lines. Um or at
the very least, you know, you

421
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.319
get being reincarnate, come back as
a different as a different race, and

422
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.519
that could be a lot of fun
too. What I'm really getting at is

423
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:04.960
like going for the kill and not
just for the down. I just don't

424
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.960
play that way. I just don't. I just don't find that fun.

425
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:12.240
I mean, this is one of
those things where this is very much a

426
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:18.759
to taste sing. Different tables have
different levels of that. But when I

427
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:25.160
ran my games in the store,
when I owned my game store, we

428
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:30.599
were very careful about calibrating. We
had kind of different tables with different dms,

429
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:36.799
and I was the kind of story
based, um good for younger kids.

430
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:38.720
I had the special needs kids and
stuff like that that might have been

431
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.079
really upset if their character just got
killed by die roll, and so I

432
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:47.519
was a lot more you know,
I was a lot looser and easier on

433
00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:51.160
them. But we had one guy
that was the like, you know,

434
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:56.640
like if a PC didn't get killed
every session, the players at his table

435
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.680
would be disappointed that he was going
too easy on them. Yeah, but

436
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.680
we calibrated that. We were like, what kind of game do you want?

437
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.240
Like, yeah, kill Gil Gil, Okay, you're gonna go over

438
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:14.119
with Mark, you know exactly,
you know, And if somebody else was

439
00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:18.319
like you know, we want complicated
court based intrigue and stuff like that.

440
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.559
Okay, you're going to go over
with you know, with Sarah a kind

441
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:26.359
of thing like that. And if
you're you know, if you're a parent

442
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:32.160
there with a with a eleven year
old kid on the spectrum that uh really

443
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:34.119
wants to play D and D but
hasn't known where to do that, then

444
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:37.359
yeah, come to my table and
we'll we'll all work it in and we'll

445
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.839
talk it out and yeah, that
kind of thing. So yeah, as

446
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.519
long as everybody's on the same page, then then you should be. Okay.

447
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:49.279
Yeah, it's important to get everybody
on the same page. I will

448
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:52.119
say that the player that I did
actually kill said that was his favorite session

449
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:56.720
yet, So character character that you
kill, I said what I said,

450
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:04.039
Jim sometimes talking with friends. So
a couple of a couple of good stories

451
00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:07.400
to David, that's going to do
it for a DM academy. Go find

452
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.960
everything that we do over at Curmudgeons
and Dragons dot com. Send us your

453
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:17.880
advice seeking column whatever posts, and
just just send us an email and ask

454
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:22.839
us for stuff. Whether you're sending
us yes, whether you're asking you for

455
00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:27.799
advice or or you've get your horror
story or your wholesome story, or even

456
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.359
just want to say hello. It's
Curmudcons and Dragons pod at gmail dot com

457
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.519
or everything is at curmudgeon dragons dot
com. You can go to the contact

458
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.119
and send us that thing. On
there. We get a little voicemail which

459
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:38.480
it too. You can even you
can even read us a story yourself.

460
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:43.000
But that is going to wrap it
up for today. Jim, thank you

461
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:51.119
so much. Yeah, you're very
welcome. Goodbye adventures. Thank you for

462
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:55.079
listening to Courmudgeons and Jackons. Please
share us with your favorite adventures, leave

463
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:59.880
a review on Apple, and follow
us on social media. All thanks.

464
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:04.960
We found at Comudgeons and Dragons dot
com practice safe for Venturing my friends