WOTC Sics Pinktertons On Youtuber!?

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Sometimes talking with friends feels like role
playing. Sometimes it feels like combat.

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Join us at the round table and
roll an ish too. This is Curmudgeons

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and Dragons. Hello adventurers, Welcome
to Courmudgeons and Dragons. I'm Jason Portizo,

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and today I'm once again joined by
Missus Josie Diaz and Jim Crocker.

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Hey, everybody, So this is
gonna be a little bit of a different

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episode for us. Usually we like
to tell silly stories and have some fun

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and laugh at your bad games and
you cry along with your good games and

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stuff like that. But we've got
some some actual current events in a genre

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and topic that doesn't usually have a
lot of current events. We really wanted

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to, you know, get this
episode out as quickly as we could.

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The last time, Words of the
Coast had a huge baccle on their hands

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and made head lines across the country. Um, we kind of purposely didn't

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do an episode about it. We're
talking about the issue. Um like we

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we all kind of had our opinions
on it, but it was just like

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it was just something that we didn't
really feel like we needed to take a

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break from our normal you know,
scheduling to talk about I don't know enough

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about bad business to talk shit about
bad business. Uh. Well, Jim,

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I know, absolutely had his opinions
on it, and um, and

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I as a content creator, had
my opinions on it. They also backtracked

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on it. They also backtracked on
it pretty quickly. So that was like

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a story that kind of flared up
and they sort of pulled back on it

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in a way that made it not
as relevant. Yeah, and there was

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a solid month there, um where
like it was a huge issue and then

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like you know, uh, they
went just kidding gun, Well here's the

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thing. So then by by backtracking
on the whole thing, they created a

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lot of good will in the community. And just as we were starting to

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like Wizards of the Coast again,
this happens. Uh. So let's let's

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just let's just talk about what happened
here. So this is the story about

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the Pinkerton's and and old school mtg
UM And if you're if it's the first

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time you're hearing about this story,
we have got a bunch of links in

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the show notes. You go ahead
and read those. Uh, there's a

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great one on Gizmoto that we're gonna
be referencing a lot. Um. But

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here are the quick the facts,
the bullet points. Um. Here is

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the order of advance as I understand
them. Um, if you guys know,

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if you correct, please correct me, Josie and Jim if you if

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I'm off on anything, but for
what I understand. A YouTuber known as

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old School MTG. His name is
Dan Cannon. Sorry, I don't know

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if you had real name? Uh
uh oh I do yeah, okay.

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So Dan Cannon, who who is
known as old School MTG has a YouTube

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channel uh talking about Match the Gathering
and doing some unboxing and stuff like that.

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So he ordered a box of the
most recent Match of the Gathering set

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and was accidentally sent a box of
the upcoming Magic the Gathering set ahead of

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release date. Um, I've been
out of Magic for too long. I

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forget the names of the sets.
I know the sets. I know the

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set names are extremely similar, which
may have been a factor. Um.

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So he gets sent the box of
incorrect product and does an unboxing video basically

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spoiling all the new cards. It's
estimated about seventy the set got spoiled.

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Um, which you know, spoilers
and Magic happen all the time. I

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played for years. Um in response, which is to the coast hired a

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private investigation and private security firm known
as the Pinkerton's to Dan Cannon's house,

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and uh, well, the facts
are they were there. They were sent

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there to retrieve the product and uh
and stop the leaks. That is,

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I think that those are the most
important bullet points that that when you to

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discuss, Is that about, right, guys? I think so it's my

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understanding of about how it went down. You okay, Um, there was

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a little bit just not only did
they go to his house, they went

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and harassed his neighbors as well.
Yeah, prior to going and making this

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man's wife cry. Yeah. So
the Pinkerton's have a long history of of

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intimidation and uh sorry, I've got
opinions about you go, you go right

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ahead, um, but intimidation and
particularly in uh uh in union busting.

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Um. And like they they are
not the good guys. Um. If

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you played Red Dead Redemption, you'll
know they are literally not the good guys.

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The organization does go back to the
eighteen fifties and h they've not they've

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never they've never been the good guys. But according to them, they are

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Um, if you were to go
to the Pinkerton website, they've got a

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brief little two pair graphs about their
history, and they say, we have

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served as guardians and protectors of organizations
around the world, defining new industry standards

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for comprehensive risk management and consistently revolutionizing
our industry from our roots serving as intelligence

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agency during the Civil War, Pinkerton
has continued to build an impressive track record,

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establishing the first criminal database, being
the first company to hire a female

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detective, and being a forerunner for
the Secret Service. So the thing is

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that those things are true, but
that's like it's very one dimensional. Yes,

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that is taking an extremely selective look
at their long history. In one

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hundred seventy five year history, they
found four good things they did. Yes,

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yeah, they allegedly foiled an assassination
attempt on Abraham Lincoln, but they

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really screwed the pooch on the next
one. Sorry soon, Josie, too

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soon. So before we get into
the implications of was the Coast even hiring

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a company like this, Um,
Josie, you have a you did some

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research on some of the activity that
Pinkerton's are have been known for. Yes,

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so, Um, most people nowadays
really know them as being union busters.

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Um. The biggest thing, Oh
my god, what was it?

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The Homestead hold on? Let me
pull it back up. The most notable

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one was when they were working for
Carnegie Steel. Um, you can find

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it referenced as the Homestead strike or
the Homestead massacre or the riot, what

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have you where they just went and
went to fucking town on protesting steel workers

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and they killed a lot of people. I can't like they are. They

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are a private they are a goon
squad for hire, and that is what

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they have throughout history. There is
a thread of someone was that called again

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the Homestead Riot or the ninety two
Homestead strike When stricting workers took over the

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Homestead Steel factory, Andrew Carnegie crony
Henry Frick tried to sneak in three hundred

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agents under cover of night to attack
the union and break the strike, but

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the union got wind of the fact
that they were on their way, so

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instead of being able to kind of
sneak in and easily take the factory back,

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it turned into a battle which left
a dozen workers dead and scores more

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injured, and twenty six states subsequently
passed laws directly as a result of that

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incident, prohibiting bringing in outside guards
during labor disputes as so, in response,

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the Pinkerton's started opening local satellite offices
so that they could skirt those laws

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and be considered in state forces brought
in to you know, continue to conductor

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union busting activities, and UM.
Jeffrey Bezos has recently utilized the Pinkertons and

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Amazon hiring them to work as spies
to to union busts, to find people

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that were attempting to unionize rightfully Amazon
Warehouses and um getting those people fired.

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So they did it a little they're
doing it nowadays a little bit more successfully,

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it seems. Without them, the
workers be catching wind of it as

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well. Yeah, it's worth pointing
out, Gym, that not only did

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uh several states pass those laws,
but it's even a federal law of that.

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Um. On a federal level,
the government cannot hire specifically the Pinkertons.

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Yes, yeah, yeah, well
that's a I mean, that's a

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separate thing that came about. That's
the nineteen Uh, there's the nineteen thirty

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six Lawful Let Committee on Civil Liberties, which divulged a lot of really damning

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information about I thought that was the
same incidents. That's my fault. Um.

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Of course we'll have links to as
much of this as we can find,

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um with sources in the show notes. If Jimmy Fabius so kind um

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so um so, now we kind
of have like an overall view of who

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they are. Um, I think
Josie, you you had this. Uh,

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this is not the first time Wizards
of the Coast has used the Pinkerton's.

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No, it is not. What
are the examples you have? Alrighty,

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so this comes from an article from
the gamer Um and it is just

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titled Wizards of the Coast has reportedly
used Pinkerton's multiple times. And it's you

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know, the timeline is getting dark
when like the fun nerdy websites are using

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very like hard hitting news headlines.
Yeah, it's like, oh, it's

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so it's it's just hell world,
hell world, hell World. Okay,

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I'm so calm, I'm so I
was pretty for like the BuzzFeed style.

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It's like, it's like seven times
the Pinkerton's have been deployed too against YouTubers.

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Number six will shock you. They
don't shock me anymore, but they

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still continue to disappoint. Yeah.
So, according to the gamer. This

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isn't the first time Wizards contracted Pinkerton
to send agents to investigate a league.

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Sources speaking to I O nine noted
a twenty seventeen investigation into an uncut sheet

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of foil. Oh, how do
you pronounce I X A L A M.

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I think even Magic players will debate
that. Okay, um um Eichelen

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cards stolen or excellent cards stolen directly
from the manufacturer. The person who took

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the sheet of uncut cards attempted to
sell them at the local card shop where

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they worked, with Pinkerton agents showing
up to both retrieve the sheet and conduct

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interviews with staff. I can't imagine
those interviews were just verbal. Um that's

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my own edit. That's not in
the article. Okay, allegedly now worth

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pointing out. I we'll get to
this um in a second here. But

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like, um, not that I
agree with their methods or with who wants

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He called a massive difference in that
story versus this one, is that that

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was truly stolen products. Yeah,
that was not meant for street release.

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I've seen uncut sheets before. I'm
on friends of a lot of Matchic dealers,

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and uncut sheets do sell for a
lot uncut foiled sheets are almost impossible

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to find. They're almost always stolen
um unless there's massive you know, printing

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issues with them. But um,
the well we'll get we'll get into uh

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what makes it different about the the
old school ntg uh issue? But uh

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yeah, that that was stolen products. Yeah. Well, during those interviews,

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the Pinkerton agents are the ones that
said that the Wizards of the Coast

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has sent them out quote multiple times
to investigate these sorts of problems. And

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here's the here's a fun little tidbit. The current manager of Global Investigations at

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Hasbro is a former Pinkerton agent and
the current director of Risk Management was previously

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the director of supply chain Security Practice
at Pinkerton. That is the first time

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I heard that. Yeah, um, that's fantastic. It's just like,

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oh no, the calls coming from
inside the house, Oh my gosh.

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That But like in that case in
twenty seventeen, it was a genuine theft.

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And when this was initially reported,
it was the people were reporting on

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it as that it was a theft, and later on it was discovered it

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was just a mistake. He was
It was not out of malice or anything.

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I just got something that wasn't meant
to be released yet, and he

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was excited to share it with the
world. Yeah that's this story. Yeah.

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Yes. And then in this same
art a call they they interview him.

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Um. Not only was he threatened
with fines in jail time, um,

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but they also all t d yes
okay Dan danon okay Dan Cannon.

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Um. They also allegedly questioned his
neighbors, and Dan says, quote,

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harassing my neighbors is unnecessary. This
whole thing is unnecessary. Um. And

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that was in a follow up video
because the original unboxing video was taken down

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at the request of Wizards of the
Coast. But he said, if Wizard

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had just called me or emailed me, we could have handled this totally civilly.

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I would have cooperated. They could
have sent me a call tag for

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the product or replaced it with the
product I actually ordered, and everything would

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have been fine. They did not
need to send these pinkertons to my house,

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and they definitely didn't need to go
to my neighbors houses and grill them

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for information. Like he's right now, this could have been so go ahead.

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Sorry, So to be fair,
why he claims that they made attempts

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to contact him before they sent the
goon squad to his house. UM,

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I just I don't understand what is
the what is the charge here? What

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can he be like like if somebody
accidentally sent him something that they weren't supposed

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to send him. It's not I
mean, it's not illegal. So that's

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part of it is so him being
in possession of it, had he not

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made a video, no whatever,
No, and it's it's just know that

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it's a shipping error. Their their
claim here. Um. And this is

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something that is actually debatable, UM. And I and I can I can

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actually see both sides of this.
Is that him doing the leak video uh

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constituted as either sub sort of copyright
infringement um or something along those lines where

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he's giving out information that was not
supposed to be release for another about month

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or so um and then putting back
out, putting that out publicly to his

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followers. Was was what made them, uh, you know, retaliate like

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that. I suppose it would.
That's exactly what I would call it is

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a retaliation. That's because that's what
it is. That's that's it's grossly violent

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to send literal goons to someone's house
to intimidate them, threaten them, because

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it's because threatening somebody with with fines
in jail time is an issue. I'm

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just in the phone calls that Wizards
claims they made to him, it would

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have come through as an unknown number. Can we all agree that there's no

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chance I'm ever answering that call?
Ye numbers zero percent chance. That's when

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I get calls here, so like
I will, nobody needs to see my

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phone when I get phone calls from
like scam likely or whatever, or like

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numbers I don't recognize. After if
I if I see a number pop up

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more than once, I will answer
the phone and say you are being charged

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for an international call? What do
you want? And nine times out of

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ten they immediately hang up. I
hardly answering most calls from people I know.

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Yeah, you text them and say
what do you want? What do

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you want? If it's important,
leave a message. And if I don't

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recognize a number, I wait till
it goes a voicemail because I don't want

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to. I don't want them to
hear me hit the hang up button exactly,

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wait till it goes a voicemail,
and then I google your number to

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00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:33.799
see who you are. Yeah,
don't ever call me from an unknown number

204
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:38.440
if you want me to answer.
So uh point point Dan Kennon, even

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00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:42.679
if Wizards is telling the truth on
that one. Yeah, because you can

206
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.519
say that you try it all you
want, will we mean at times it's

207
00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:52.519
like okay, yeasail for yeah,
yeah, so the next step of you

208
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:56.519
didn't answer the phone. So I'm
hiring thugs to take this stuff back,

209
00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:02.320
right and realistically, like if Dan
wanted to, he could have been like,

210
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:04.319
you can't come in my house.
You can't have the ship and close

211
00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.680
the door in their face, and
there would They would have no legal reason.

212
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.079
They can't. They can't break down
your door. They're not allowed to.

213
00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:12.440
Yeah, you're right, well they
would. They would have to.

214
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:18.279
They would have to involve actual police, think an actual warranty, which like

215
00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.880
serious enough issue, do not have
that power. They are just there to

216
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:27.759
scare you. And it worked again. They made this man's wife cry.

217
00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:33.000
That's the real crime here. It's
like, bro, my wife don't cry,

218
00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.279
no unnecessary, don't harass my neighbors, don't make my wife cry.

219
00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.559
Take your shitty little just like I'm
sorry that you guys fucked up and now

220
00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.240
you're making it. My problem is
what that feels like. Yep. My

221
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:51.079
question is who did he receive these
cards from. Did they come directly from

222
00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:56.119
watsy or did they come from a
supplier like a retailer or a distributor or

223
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.759
like an online card site. My
understanding of this, UM, the retailer

224
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:07.160
has not been named from any article
that I've seen. UM. And you

225
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:11.119
know uh and you you as a
as a game store owner, would be

226
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:18.000
uniquely privy to this information. But
Wizards does not give product to players.

227
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.599
Um. The only time Wizards is
ever giving product out is for promotional reasons.

228
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:27.200
So for for uh, for Dan
Cannon to receive products as an end

229
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:33.559
user, UH, it first has
to come from Wizards distribution to a game

230
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.119
distributor. And there's a couple um. And I'm sure there's have been more

231
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.680
since I stopped playing the game and
I'm still friends a lot of game owners.

232
00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.839
UM. But there's a couple,
like major major distributors that would then

233
00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.839
go to retailer, like like a
dozen authorized distributors in the United States.

234
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.680
Yeah, yeah, and some are
bigger than others. Um and UH.

235
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:57.039
Then the distributors then goes to the
retailers, So it goes from Wizards to

236
00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:02.400
distributor, to retailer, and then
to the then to the customer. So

237
00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:07.119
I had to go through at least
two cents of hands before it got into

238
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:12.160
mister Cannon's hands, which, and
this is something we're discussing before the episode

239
00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:21.039
started. This should have been at
worst a contractual issue between Wizards and the

240
00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:26.359
retailer or possibly the distributor. Right
now, the distributor can get the product

241
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:32.039
into retailer's hands a certain amount of
time before release date so that they are

242
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:36.000
ready for release date. This this
is not uncommon at all. You'll see

243
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.640
this with video games, You'll see
this with movies. You'll see this on

244
00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.480
anything that's time sensitive. Working at
I worked at Best Body for a couple

245
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.359
of years, and like all the
movies that came in, came in sealed

246
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.079
boxes saying, you know, do
not break the seal before this date.

247
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:52.599
Video games was a huge one for
that a game could not go out even

248
00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:59.000
an hour early. And this seems
like it should have been a breach of

249
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:04.880
contract between either Wizards and the retailer, or even Wizards and the distributor if

250
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:07.880
they if they wanted to push it
and go extreme with and really throw the

251
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.680
book at someone. This should have
been a contract of business issue. That

252
00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:17.240
is not a story. Yeah,
contract business issue and a take whatever,

253
00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:21.319
a takedown at YouTube or Twitter,
whatever it is wherever that video is up.

254
00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:25.000
You just do a takedown and that's
what goes down, and you know,

255
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:29.680
contact him to say we took these
down. Hang out to the cards

256
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.119
for now, but please don't talk
about them. And that's it's over.

257
00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:40.880
And I just want to read a
little bit from the Gizmoto article where,

258
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.680
in an exchange with Ion nine,
Canon confirmed the statements he made on the

259
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.400
video and added additional context, stating
that as soon as my wife answered the

260
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:51.880
door, they aggressively asked for me
by my full name, announced themselves as

261
00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:56.359
the Pinkerton Agency, which I am
very familiar with their reputation, and said

262
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.599
they were there to recover stolen goods. After his wife asked them to outside,

263
00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.200
Cannon says that they forced themselves at
least partially through the door and prevented

264
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:07.640
her from closing the door all the
way. When Cannon eventually got to the

265
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.599
door, he says that he assertively
moved everyone outside and told the agents that

266
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.319
they needed to treat the Cannons with
more respect. They did eventually dial it

267
00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:18.839
back and become more civil after that. UM, Wizards of the co says

268
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.759
it strongly refutes this depiction of events, which contradicts both the report from the

269
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.119
investigation as well as the conversation between
the individual and Wizards of the Coast representative

270
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.880
after the interaction in question. The
company also stated that under no circumstances would

271
00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:36.720
reinstruct any employee or contracted agency to
intimidate an individual. Now, on the

272
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:42.759
one hands, you know, uh, I'm going to give this a very

273
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:47.400
generous read, very generous. Okay, I'm on handing out reads here.

274
00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:56.480
Okay, this now saying that it's
a contradicts the the reports and the conversation

275
00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:02.480
with with Cannon Um saying that it
contradicts the report. Of course, Painton

276
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:04.160
is going to make their own report
look better than it did. I'm not

277
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:10.319
worried about that one. Contradicting the
conversation with with Kennon. Um. This

278
00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:12.079
is gonna making me kind of want
to wait for just a little more information

279
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:18.319
before I can agree or disagree with
that statement. And then the last part

280
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.839
was, of course, I'm not
going to instruct anyone to to intimidate.

281
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:29.039
They can just decide that on their
own. Yeah, and just given the

282
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:33.680
history of the Pinkerton's, it is
sort of implied that they will be like,

283
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:36.839
you're hiring muscle. I'm calling the
intimidation guys. I'm not going to

284
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:40.319
instruct them to intimidate and say,
listen, just be very nice to the

285
00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:45.880
guy. Wink. Yeah, I
don't just do what you do best wink.

286
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:51.079
Overall, this is incredibly bad optics
for Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast

287
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:59.079
with in the eyes of the gaming
community, especially like I don't know if

288
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:03.400
they would have the same kind of
reaction if it wasn't specifically the Pinkerton's detective

289
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:07.440
agency that they hired. If it
was a different security company, maybe this

290
00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:12.759
wouldn't have even been a story.
But given their history, it just feels

291
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:18.119
it leaves a bad taste in my
mouth. Yeah, but there, yes,

292
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.119
but I think it is. It
would still be a story even it

293
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.480
was wasn't the Pinkerton's. The Pinkerton's
give it a particular valance. But if

294
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.559
it's a civil matter, you solve
it civilly. If it's a criminal matter,

295
00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:36.319
you solve it you call the police. And the police come in and

296
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:41.400
take care of that. And this
the Pinkerton's is kind of private, corporate

297
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:48.480
security stuff that is kind of in
this nebulous gray zone between like having a

298
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:53.319
conversation with somebody and actually involving law
enforcement. They're they're not law enforcement,

299
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:59.480
but you can in their face.
They show up at your house with guns

300
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.079
and they act like law enforcement,
and they expect that you will treat them

301
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.480
like law enforcement when they have none
of the oversight of law enforcement. And

302
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:14.640
that's the genuinely insidious thing here,
Yeah, is that you know, uh,

303
00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:18.079
Watsy wanted it treated like a criminal
matter, but didn't want to actually

304
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:23.519
treat it like a criminal matter.
M recover stolen property. Fuck you recover

305
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:27.799
stolen property. That's what the police
are for. Yeah, And it turned

306
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:33.799
out it wasn't stolen. It was
just it was an error and it've sent

307
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.640
You've sent thugs to someone's house to
intimidate them into giving them giving them something

308
00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:42.720
that is rightfully yours. It was
protected by consumer law. You know,

309
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:48.160
it's very very but it's like one
of the most bedrock basic principles of consumer

310
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:53.519
law for mail order purchases that if
somebody accidentally sends you something. If it

311
00:24:53.559 --> 00:25:00.480
gets sent to the wrong address,
you own it. I have a stack

312
00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:08.359
of Lulu Lemon um yoga hats because
in yoga because someone whatever, you know,

313
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:11.160
little sun hats. Right, Yeah, but I was like we did

314
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.759
in order from Lulu Lemon. But
it's clearly like, you know, completely

315
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:19.640
different name, but our address.
Somebody put the wrong address in and so

316
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:23.200
you know, we got these Lulu
Lemon hats. The real question, jam

317
00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:26.799
is do you look good in them? Um? I should, I'll get

318
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:29.799
one. I should go get one
and put it up. Hang on just

319
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:34.440
a second, get them, get
them YouTube subs. Yes, King,

320
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.079
I can't believe you went and got
it. Oh that's a cute. It's

321
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:44.440
a bucket hat. It's very nice. Oh my god, your shirt.

322
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.720
Yeah, our bucket hats yoga hats. No, I don't know this is

323
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:49.880
written for yoga. This is from
Lula Lemons. So I don't know.

324
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:56.640
I'm ready for a rave now.
I look like, look like I'm in

325
00:25:56.680 --> 00:25:59.720
the Stone Roses or something like that. Looks like you're going to a New

326
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:03.880
Radicals concert. Yes, yeah,
no, that's sorry. Sorry, Stone

327
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.119
Roses is my era. But yes, yeah, it's that kind of thing.

328
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.279
Um, I think that ridiculous thing. We'll protect my identity from the

329
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.279
from the Pinkerton's. If those hats
do you have? Can I have one?

330
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.319
Yeah? Sure, I mean it. It'll it'll cost you can have

331
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:23.359
one, like when you come back
for jersey, I'll give you one.

332
00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:30.319
All right, So um, this
with for headphones go back on. Okay,

333
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:34.720
that ladies and gentlemen was a tangent. That's what a tangent looks like.

334
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.160
No, that's that's what a push
for YouTube subs looks like. All

335
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:42.119
right, all right, do you
want to see a gym and his and

336
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:47.519
his ridiculous hat, Go ahead and
follow us market uh curmug dragons dot com

337
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:52.440
slash YouTube. Um. Anyway,
So so back to the very serious topic

338
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.319
at hand here here, So,
um, I want to talk a little

339
00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:02.359
bit about about um, this coming
off the tail of the OGL debacle,

340
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.279
um, which was like not really
like a criminal thing going on. There

341
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.400
was no like the word. The
most insidious thing about the OGL debacco was

342
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:15.640
capitalism, um, which I'll let
you guys talk about that, but don't

343
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:21.160
let me talk about it. Yeah
that's a different podcast. Uh, but

344
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:29.400
um, you know that just being
a general bad faith issue and then with

345
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:33.839
the very public outcry. Uh,
the end of the did end up backtracking

346
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.839
on and gave us some semblance of
of hope for how much we can trust

347
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.599
a company. And then they come
out, you know, with with the

348
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.559
with the there was the handshake with
one hand and the knife behind the back

349
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:48.400
with the other. Um. I
think we need to be really clear about

350
00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:52.160
one thing here, okay, which
is this is the United States of America.

351
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.599
We all understand what's going on with
guns in this country right now.

352
00:27:57.160 --> 00:28:04.599
Um, somebody could have ended up
dead as dead. Somebody could have been

353
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:11.480
killed as a result of this.
No amount of fulmination over the OGL was

354
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.079
ever going to result in anybody getting
physically hurt. People could have been killed,

355
00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:22.039
exactly Innocent people living in these houses
could have been killed. Neighbors could

356
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.440
have been killed, People could have
been killed as a result of this.

357
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:30.440
The Pinkertons are armed, They're not
cops. They're they're banging on people's doors,

358
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.759
Um, without any proof that they
are who they say they are.

359
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.720
This is the kind of ship where
people end up dead. Yeah, and

360
00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.880
uh, you know, and that's
that's just speak for the Cannon family.

361
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.720
And then like you know, we've
got a We've got a history in this

362
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.880
country over the past month or so
of people just knocking on the wrong door

363
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.960
and getting themselves shot. The the
Asians could have been could have been shot

364
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:57.920
by the Cannet family and rightfully so
oh no, listen, like so let's

365
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:03.359
let um. Depending depending on where
they are and depending on that state's you

366
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:07.920
know, laws against laws regarding castle
doctrine and things like that. That's not

367
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.599
stand your ground. That is a
posi. That is a possibility. But

368
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:15.839
this is this escalates far beyond.
But it's also the thing and absolutely is

369
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.000
a night and day thing between this
and the oganas. I'm just it's just

370
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:22.599
it's just the most recent uh nope, de bacco on the pr debacle on

371
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.519
there. It really destroys their credibility
as a company. Like you will like

372
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:30.599
okay, like you saw, you
fucked up, you rolled it back,

373
00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:33.240
and we were starting to be like
okay, maybe, and then you've said

374
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:37.519
a goon squad out right. I
will not stop using the phrase goon squad.

375
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.319
You cannot. Also, this is
also a reminder of a couple of

376
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:45.960
things, and the first is that
all of dungeons and Dragons, two Wizards

377
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:48.839
of the Coast is a rounding air
compared to magic, and that they will

378
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:53.599
do what is necessary to protect magic
and protect the integrity of magic because that's

379
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.559
what their shareholders care about, is
what's going on with that's the real moneymaker.

380
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:04.559
Yes, and oiler and um,
I you know, maybe I'm maybe

381
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:08.559
I'm just you know, a glass
half empty kind of guy, but I

382
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.680
can't imagine that this is going to
affect magic sales at all appreciative. It

383
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:17.680
won't. It won't. So so
you know, we we can yell about

384
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:21.200
it and stuff like that, but
shareholders are going to say good job,

385
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:27.079
and magic players are gonna shrug,
um or you know, the worst possible

386
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:32.720
outcome, which is and and to
some extent, we're doing it right now.

387
00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:37.319
This turns into another culture war thing, right, you know, where

388
00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.920
like there are some things that I'm
willing to that there are there are some

389
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:47.240
hills I'm willing to die on.
Oh yeah, yeah, but there's gonna

390
00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:48.359
be. But like, certainly in
my feed, there's a whole lot of

391
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:52.759
people that don't play magic that are
kind of like, oh those bastards.

392
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:56.240
I can't believe this. Um,
you know, and like I could swears

393
00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:00.119
in this situation. Um, oh, the Watson in the Pinkerton's Okay,

394
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.359
Like I could swear to never play
Magic again. That doesn't mean a lot

395
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:07.160
coming from me, because when I
when I finally close my game store,

396
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:11.440
I swear to do that anyways,
right, just because I was dealing with

397
00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:15.000
you know, uh, like buying
and selling Magic cards for decade, which

398
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.519
is enough to make anybody not want
to play Magic again. Yeah, this

399
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:25.039
is yeah, this is serious stuff. Yeah, and as player, as

400
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:26.960
a former Magic player, like,
it is extremely difficult to give that game

401
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:32.960
up, and like, um while
kicking in actual real drug addition is a

402
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:34.640
very serious matter and I don't want
to draw direct parallels to it, but

403
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:38.640
like there's some parallels to it.
We're like real quick, just just the

404
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:42.000
quickest tangent. Addiction doesn't have to
do with the substance it has to se

405
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:48.599
You're absolutely right. You can be
addicted to collecting things. The chemical um,

406
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.599
the chemical dependency is dopamine of course, yeah, um, which you

407
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.400
wish you do? You get from
cracking packs? Um, I go for

408
00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.400
a pack right now, I'd walk
a mile or a camel. I haven't.

409
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:02.880
I haven't bought a pack of Magic
cards in like twelve years, and

410
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:07.240
I honestly, just it's making me
now, um, why plays? Why

411
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:10.799
I play Marvel Snap now? So
it's a bit cheaper here, the crinkle

412
00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:15.799
of the foil. You smelled new
cards? Have you ever smelled new cards?

413
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.279
Anyway? Um? That's it.
Maybe maybe that can be the defense

414
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:23.039
that he puts up for this was
that it was you know, that he

415
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:27.519
couldn't help himself, that he had
to he had to crack those the new

416
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.559
pack. There's no way that that
any reasonable person could expect you to get

417
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:35.079
a you know, a box of
magic cards and not open them. So

418
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.920
what I wanted to get into is
this was like, what would he even

419
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:44.200
take at this point to uh,
to give us our trusts back in the

420
00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:45.839
company that makes the game we love
to play. I would love for them

421
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:51.559
to stop hiring the Pinkerton's just as
like a like a quick real quick that

422
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.960
one. I promise to not do
that anymore. Well, they released a

423
00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:59.839
video of the of the CEO deleting
the Pickerton's number out of his own.

424
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:05.519
Honestly, I think yeah, I'd
be cool with that. I think so.

425
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.319
So if we're going to set the
joking aside, I think we got

426
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:14.119
it out of the way all right, So what what would be To my

427
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:19.720
mind, I think the only thing
that would actually do it would be for

428
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:25.400
um them, for Hasbro to sell
them to someone in the industry with the

429
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:31.599
money to run the company that was
generally trusted by people, you know,

430
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:40.640
by gamers, right yeah, um, like maybe some like video game tech

431
00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:46.480
guy with a pile of cash who
was you know, widely respected or something

432
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:50.759
like this. But but I think
they would need to be spun off from

433
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:54.400
Hasbro because all of this is Hasbro
stuff. Yeah. Um, they are

434
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:59.480
just a you know, they're just
a little subscular, Yeah, a subsidi

435
00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:02.240
or of Bro. And it's Hasbro
that's hiring the Pinkerton's, you know.

436
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:07.360
And it's Hasbro that hired a couple
of ex Pinkerton's to run security at watsy

437
00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:13.800
um and you know, and they're
the they're the Megacorp, the cyberpunk Megacorp.

438
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:20.280
Uh you know that is that that
we're all pointing our fingis at now

439
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:23.280
when you're saying the cyberpunk Megacorp that
we should be pointing our wrath at right,

440
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:28.239
when you're saying tell me twice,
Jim, I'm ready. I'm raring

441
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.599
to go. Jess Josie's wrath points
just in all directions. It's it's omnidirectional.

442
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:36.559
Um kind of you, what do
you say when you say here,

443
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.159
when you say letting go to another
company, are you talking about specifically D

444
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:43.239
and D or Wizards as a whole? I mean Wizards as a whole.

445
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:45.519
I mean, okay, like I
don't. I mean, I guess,

446
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:49.880
you know what. I guess you
could spend D and D off as as

447
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:52.159
its own thing, as a separate
property. But they're so I mean,

448
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:57.000
yeah, I mean I guess you
could. I mean if if you're touched

449
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.400
so you said watsy, so I
was talking about Watsy. Sure, But

450
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:02.199
if all we're worried about is Dungeons
and Dragons, which you know, I

451
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:06.360
guess under the auspices of this show, that is what we're worried about,

452
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:09.440
having the game spun off and bought
by um, you know. And the

453
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:13.719
nice thing about that is you need
a lot less money to just buy D

454
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:20.679
and D than to buy Lotsy as
a whole, because Hasbro is not going

455
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:23.679
to give up magic. Yeah,
and I think it would be very difficult

456
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:29.079
to separate D and D and Magic, just because now more than ever,

457
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:34.119
yes, so there's so much several
sets recently of all D and D content

458
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:37.840
in well, and I mean,
and it's also worth noting that that,

459
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:44.480
uh, they probably made more money
from that movie than they have from all

460
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:49.519
of the game shit that they've done
in the last however many years. It

461
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.559
was a movie. But but but
that's the thing, that's where the money.

462
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:55.920
The money is in that license and
not in selling US players handbooks and

463
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.440
dice. Yeah. Even with that, they said the movie numbers were under

464
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:05.079
underwhelming. Um, despite you know
what, it really was a great movie

465
00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:10.599
that but we'll talk about that another
show. Um. But so uh yeah,

466
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:15.360
so a separation from Hasbro is that
is that really the line we have

467
00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:19.960
to draw, Like that that's the
only thing that I could see being anything,

468
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:22.639
Like, you know, that's the
only way to kind of guarantee that

469
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:28.679
this specific thing won't happen again.
Yeah, Like like when you say one

470
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:31.159
store trust, I mean that's I
don't know that there ever was trust there,

471
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:36.239
but sure, I just don't trust
corporations in general. Ever, fair,

472
00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:39.119
I think step one and this is
like I don't know what the rest

473
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:44.840
of the steps are. Um,
I don't know what a resolution to this

474
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:49.079
looks like, um, but step
one needs to be and it's probably already

475
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:53.840
coming. Um A like full public
apology. Um, that's the bare minimum,

476
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:58.760
and they haven't given us that yet. And a correlation and a correlation

477
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:04.000
between wizards and mister Cannon's stories.
Yeah. Yeah, we need the actual

478
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.079
facts to be agreed upon and then
we can kind of go from there.

479
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:13.559
And you know, there's no there's
not going to be video of this,

480
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:17.320
I suspect unfortunately, this is the
kind of thing where I wish someone had

481
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:21.119
been there with a cell phone too. Well, you know, maybe what

482
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:25.239
happened, Maybe they somebody had a
ring camera. Yep, maybe let's possible.

483
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:29.400
Maybe more so, maybe we will. I hope we get more information

484
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:35.239
about this, because as as willing
as I am to just to just say

485
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:40.719
fuck you to the Pinkerton's, because
they're trash human beings in my opinion,

486
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.800
just for you know, litigation sake
and what have you, like, I'll

487
00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:50.920
sell them down the river so fucking
fast. But like, if it turns

488
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:54.320
out that it was a little bit
more on Dan Cannon, which personally I

489
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:59.000
don't really believe, I would like
to know. I want the facts.

490
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.239
Yeah, and this is very much
an ongoing story. This, this whole

491
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:06.559
thing just came out this week.
We were recording this episode Thursday, April

492
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:10.320
twenty seventh. We're releasing this episode
Friday, April twenty eighth, which is

493
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:15.519
right now for some of you.
Yeah, and um, two thousand and

494
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:17.559
three, depending on how far in
the future you're listening to this. And

495
00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:23.840
then all of this came out like
this week. The first the first I

496
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:28.119
heard of this, I believe was
was it Monday this started going out?

497
00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:31.119
I think, so okay, So
so we're like, you know, we're

498
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:39.400
three days Pinkerton's was trending on Twitter. Yeah, my masses on feed was

499
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.119
just full of posts that were like
the fucking Pinkerton's Are you kidding me?

500
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:51.480
Oh man? Please Okay, the
memes have been great. Um, at

501
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:53.559
least, let's at least let's at
least take away some positive out of this.

502
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:00.440
Yes, I was very confused because
I was recently if I to join

503
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:05.880
a Weezler tribute band, and I've
there's been you know, so having Pinkerton

504
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:08.360
blow up my feet is not out
of the ordinary. However, we are

505
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:12.280
only learning the Blue out. We
are only learning the blue album right now.

506
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:17.280
So like it was a little weird. That's a goos, that's all

507
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:24.599
very true. We're called supermanski.
Um. I would like to leave with

508
00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:32.239
a contemporaneous a nineteenth century quote by
a newspaper columnist, specifically in reference to

509
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:37.239
the Pinkerton's and some of their activities, and it goes something like this,

510
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:45.000
no man of refined sensibilities would enter
the ranks as a hired hession of plutocracy

511
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:51.920
expecting to shoot down his brothers at
the command of capital. That's such a

512
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:57.400
sexy quote. Oh my god,
and I agree. People just don't don't

513
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:00.840
talk like that anymore. A language
is ever evolving. But boy, I'm

514
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:07.280
so glad I understand no those words
and agree with them on So we are

515
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:10.079
going to have a lot of links
in the show notes, so please go

516
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:14.519
check all of those out. If
you're watching on YouTube, I'm going to

517
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:17.679
have a link in the in the
description that I'll bring you to the proper

518
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:21.440
show notes you can see the whole
thing, So please go check that out

519
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:23.639
lout as well. Um. Again, this is an ongoing story. This

520
00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:27.320
is uh, this is all just
kind of coming to light now and things

521
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:31.800
are changing and evolving. So if
anything major h comes out about this,

522
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:37.599
we'll do a follow up episode or
at least if you just want to shoot

523
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:40.000
on the Pinkerton slide into my DMS
on Twitter, Goblin scratched this baby,

524
00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:45.559
I'd be happy to talk about it
for hours. We're going to get to

525
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.760
our our normal content again very very
soon. Um. We'll pick that up

526
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:54.280
again next week with the with the
DM Academy episode Jim and I did.

527
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.920
That was going to release tomorrow,
but we're gonna push that back now.

528
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:02.320
Um So, if you, hey, if you like this kind of content,

529
00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:05.760
if you like us chiming in on
on things like this, let me

530
00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:08.800
more serious episodes, please let us
know and we'll make sure we do more

531
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:14.480
of it. Um So that's uh. Commerctions and dragonspot at gmail dot com.

532
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:19.360
Please give us some feedback any information
you may have on this story or

533
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:24.079
any other anecdotes about the Pinkerton's um
or any corrections about how much I don't

534
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:29.199
know if imagine the gathering anymore.
I'm open to all of it. Um

535
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:32.079
Any anything else to add before we
wrap this up, guys, I would

536
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:37.719
just like to really quick say thank
you to Greg, who is the one

537
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.719
that suggested that we cover this.
Greg Genovis. We do miss him.

538
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:45.239
I miss him all the time.
I hope Skimmy is doing okay. I

539
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.480
hope your hair is long and luxurious, and I hope you're happy that we

540
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:52.480
got to cover it. And if
you're a fix all your fix, all

541
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.960
your ship, Greg, we'd love
to have you back on. Get a

542
00:41:55.960 --> 00:42:00.480
new computer, dollars, get a
brand new some future that we will invite

543
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:02.960
you back with open arms. He's
not off the show because we don't want

544
00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:07.920
him. He's off the show because
he's physically technically unable to participate in the

545
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.320
show. He needs a new rig. Yeah, so if you guys want

546
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:16.519
to start and go fund me to
get Greg a new computer. Um uh,

547
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:21.119
Jimmy feels no. I think that's
it. Like we said, we'll

548
00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:24.679
have a lot more detail in the
show notes about what's going on, definitely,

549
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:29.840
and this may be one where as
we learn more, we update the

550
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:31.239
show notes. It's not a thing
I usually go back and do, but

551
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.400
this one, I think I'm going
to do my best to stay on top

552
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.239
of them. Uh yeah, we'll
see if we'll see if we need to.

553
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:39.400
But that's gonna do it for this
one. Thank you so much for

554
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:44.840
listening. We'll be back with our
sillier content very very soon, I promise.

555
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:47.480
But Josie Jim, thank you so
much for joining me today, and

556
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:57.239
thank you adventurers. Thank you for
listening to com Mudgeons and Jackins. Please

557
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.280
share this with your favorite adventures,
leave her view on Apple, and follow

558
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:05.760
us on social media. All links
can be found at Curmudgeons and Dragons dot

559
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:07.679
com. Practice safe for venturing,
my friends,